Katie and Jenny Mollen Talk the Toxicity of Social Media

Jenny Mollen is HILARIOUS. She’s also an incredibly supportive friend and was so helpful when my memoir came out. So, I wanted to return the favor. 

Jenny has a new book out today called City of Likes and yes, it’s a novel — really a roman à clef — about toxic friendships, motherhood, and the often overly curated world of social media.  Jenny’s got the jitters about the release of her new book (I can relate!) but I grabbed a few minutes with her as she was rushing around promoting it.

Katie Couric: Your book comes out today. How, how excited are you?

Jenny Mollen: Oh my gosh. This feels like a pregnancy that will not end. I am so ready for this book to come out into the world. This was a four-year journey.

First, tell me about your previous books.

So, the first two books were memoirs — a collection of essays based on the crazy capers that I find myself getting into. And this book was a fully different beast because this book is just so much more personal. The story really focuses on all of my deepest fears regarding social media. So I knew I had to write this book, otherwise, I was going to become this book, Katie. I’m just so happy that it’s actually going to be on bookshelves tomorrow. It feels surreal.

We’re living in this strange new world of defining ourselves, expressing ourselves, and conveying our thoughts and dreams on social media. I think you were at the forefront of that in many ways. Talk about how that’s impacted you and some of the issues you’re wrestling with in this book.

I was always an oversharer — I launched my career on Twitter, but when I got started with Instagram at first, it felt like just a fun scrapbook. A place where I could post pictures of my feet on vacation and sunsets. And then, before I knew it, I had a second child and Instagram became a place where you could actually make money and have a career based on whatever was happening in your day-to-day life. And I became this voice of motherhood accidentally — messy motherhood, I should preface that. I started to look around me at the women who were doing what I was doing and I couldn’t help but notice this disparity between how women were actually living their lives and how they were selling motherhood online.

And I would go home at night, and the question that just kept rattling around in my brain was, “If I’m so busy trying to curate motherhood for other people, how present am I in day-to-day life for my real kids?” That just haunted me, and I couldn’t get away from it. I thought, OK, I’m gonna write another memoir. I’m going to do what everybody expects me to do. And I just couldn’t do it, Katie. I set out on this journey to write this book and nobody wanted this book for me, Katie, like everybody was like, “What are you doing?” You’re supposed to be funny. You’re supposed to have another light memoir. And I just couldn’t do it. I had to tell this story, otherwise, I was going to become it.

What is the elevator pitch for this book?

The elevator pitch at first was, “Devil Wears Prada if Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep had sex.” But as you start writing — and you’ve been through this process — your truth seeps out. Whether you’re trying to hide it or not, you just find yourself in this place where your truth takes over. It really became a love letter to my kids, but also a cautionary tale to myself.

How have you changed through this process? Has it changed the way you use social media?

It has. I really have to draw a line now. I can no longer not see it as the cigarette that I’m hiding from my children or another woman in my marriage. Because it is this narcissist that you have to keep feeding, otherwise the light goes out on you and it just all goes away. I needed to be clear about that because I think at first it was this innocuous thing. It was just a place where I could be funny and overshare and go, “Oh, that’s something cute. Let me put that up.” And now it’s just really crystallized for me what it is and what it can do. There is a time and a place for it.

In certain moments, it’s like “pics, or it didn’t happen.” That’s the culture we live in. It’s like this “pics or it didn’t happen” culture. Sometimes, it’s better to live the moment than have the picture later, I’ve discovered.

I hear what you’re saying about feeding the beast. It does appeal to the narcissist in all of us, and this positive feedback loop that we’re all in. It does add a sometimes unnecessary layer to living life. It also adds a distracting layer if you have kids. My daughters are 26 and 30 and they still say, “Mom, get off your phone.” They say my favorite thing is watching my stories and I don’t think that’s a compliment. But I do love this idea of building a community of like-minded (and sometimes not like-minded people, if they are respectful) people. Is that something that you’re still attracted to? I think your imperfect motherhood posts really resonate with people.

I was with Gabby Bernstein the other day, and she was talking about something that I posted a long time ago about mental health. She said, “When I saw you posting about it, I realized there shouldn’t be any shame around it.” That meant so much to me. I was just up to my same antics, I wasn’t really thinking about the fact that maybe it was helping people. But when you hear that something you said really impacted somebody, there’s absolutely nothing better. I do think that so much good has come out of Instagram as well. I hate to totally knock it because I owe my entire career to social media. But I do think there’s a fine line. I also think that there are people who are probably using it for good and using it for evil. There are all different types out there.

How would you describe the moms who use social media to make everyone feel bad about themselves, this idealized version of motherhood that is sanitized and manufactured?

I don’t even think they’re trying to make others feel bad. I feel like they’re just really trying to lift themselves up. I want to believe that there isn’t malice behind it. But it does become a little bit of a “Keeping up with the Jones’” type of thing. I think when it’s hyper-curated and when I see women posting things with their kids in the picture, and you can tell that it’s a bit staged or the caption doesn’t make any sense or relate to the photo — that’s the stuff I would save as inspiration for myself when I was writing.

I actually got quite a kick out of some of them. Like when it’s a family of four and the husband looks like he’s being held hostage, and the mom’s like, “Just another great day with the children. We had so much fun today!” And she’s in a full-blown ball gown and the kids are used as props. That’s the kind of stuff that would just kill me.

But don’t you think that people reject that? And that people are looking for authenticity and the messy parts of life on Instagram?

I do. But I also think that now the messy is also manufactured. Instagram became a place where if you had an absolute breakdown, you would also be rewarded for it. Then, there was this movement of oversharing that really, in my opinion, got so extreme.

That’s the thing that I’ve realized, even for myself — I’m guilty of it too. Even when it’s messy, it’s still manufactured to some degree. You wrote a caption, you posted it, it’s still theater in a way. I think that we can’t forget that.

Have you found a comfortable balance? If so, what is it? Because I think a lot of people reading this will be all ears.

For me, I don’t post the kids. I live in New York City. I often think, Would it be different if I lived in LA where my kids are in a school and then they are put in a car, and then they’re in my house? People don’t have access to them. Personally, I don’t feel comfortable with the idea that my son could be on the subway or at the park, and someone would know him by his face and say, “Hey, that’s Sid Biggs.” That’s a line that I’ve had to really draw. That’s also a byproduct of being a child of the 80s and always thinking that everybody wants to rape, kill, murder, and kidnap me. Maybe too many afterschool specials, but I can’t post the kids. I’m soundly opposed.

I’ve wondered for the past couple of years about the impact of posting your children without their permission. Also, is having them be part of this culture of likes responsible for an unhealthy sense of self as they develop? Let’s say your kids don’t wanna be in the public eye when they grow up; let’s say they do. I think it’s really hard to establish a separate identity for children if they’re part of the show on social media.

Completely. If they turn to you one day and say, “Why are there 500 nudes of me as a baby floating around the internet?” Things like that just scare me to death.

But I think it’s something people don’t really think about. They think, Of course, I’m going to share pictures of my kids. But I’ve noticed people like Kristen Bell and Dax Shepard don’t share pictures of their children. I noticed Tan France covered his new baby’s face. I think people should make that choice, but they should be mindful of the choice they’re making.

My son didn’t know what Instagram was until he was probably a second-grader. He still doesn’t know that I’m on it the way that I’m on it. He has no idea. He’ll be like, “This person has 50 followers. Can you believe it?” And I want to flex to him, you know? I always want to show off to my kids so that they think I’m cool. My husband’s like, “Keep your mouth shut, Jenny!”

Other than not posting your kids, what other accommodations have you made that you feel are healthy with social media?

Well, I definitely never post where I am. I think that’s something that people don’t think about as well. For a while, I saw a lot of people saying, “Well, I’m at this resort this weekend.” I’m thinking, You’re like a sitting duck. Why would we be advertising this? You don’t tell people your home address! I am always careful about that. 

Then there are things that I shared that I do believe helped people, but I also think I regret sharing. When my son was younger, I was holding him in the kitchen. We were playing and he fell. I dropped him — he fell out of my hand and he hit his head and fractured his skull. As you can imagine, it was the worst two days of my entire fucking life. He was fine. Absolutely fine. I posted about it because I felt pressure. I said to Jason, “If I’m only posting the good, then everything is a lie. I’m not telling the truth.” I posted about it and said, “I experienced this. You’re not alone. I know you’re probably feeling so guilty.” I’m sure it did some good at the time because other moms reached out, but I regret it, Katie. Now, when you Google my son, that comes up. I have to relive the trauma of it every time. I wish I hadn’t put that out there just to protect my own mental health.

What about monitoring your own use of social media? When you’re doing something fun, do you ever say, “This is for my family to experience and I’m not sharing it with the world”?

Yes. Because social media is like drugs. I don’t want my kids to see me sitting there, snorting up my phone. Even if I’m doing it behind closed doors. Even if I’m locked in the bathroom, pretending to pee for a half-hour, they ask, “Why do you pee for so long?” I don’t want them to see it. I don’t want to set that example.

What about their own use of phones? How old are your kids now? 

I have an eight-year-old and a four-year-old. With the four-year-old, you don’t have to worry too much. But the eight-year-old is getting to be at the age where he might be interested in having a phone and looking at videos and social media.

He likes this game Roblox. I let him play on the weekends. He’s allowed to play, but I monitor his time and he has to earn it by reading books during the week. The funny thing about this game is it’s such an addiction. The game is a kind of compilation of all these different games you can play. I would say, “I’m not gonna give you money just to buy an imaginary cape. I’m not gonna give you money to buy an imaginary pet. They’re just trying to get your money.” One night, he was playing and he didn’t have anybody to play with. So I went on my phone and I signed up for an account and I went and I joined him and let’s say his name is “jackhammer6.” I named my character “jackhammer6’s mom.” And I came into his world and he’s like, “Mom, what are you doing here?” I said, “Sid, do you wanna come to my house?” He said, “No, you’re new. You probably have a terrible house in this game.” Meanwhile, Katie, I literally was on the game for less than two minutes. I spent 20 bucks. I bought myself a mansion and a sports car. I get it. He’s like, “Are you kidding, mom? Why do you have all this nice stuff?” I said, “I don’t know. Don’t worry about it.”

He’s not interested in social media at this point, right?

No, not really. He doesn’t know enough. I’m sure it’s going to change. I’m sure his friends are going to continue to expose him to new and exciting things on telephones. But right now, I’ve managed to keep him pretty sheltered.

How are you going to inoculate your sons from falling into the abyss of social media?

I don’t know. I think that it’s going to be so hard. I cannot imagine what parents with kids just a little bit older than mine are up against. It seems crazy. I’m scared because I think that, even in TV shows, the kids are on vacation with their parents and they’re watching blue screens the entire time.

Who do you think this book is for?

I think it’s for any woman who’s ever been in a toxic relationship with another woman. It really delves into female relationships and what it’s like to be under the influence of a narcissist. That’s a big part of the book. And then any moms or people with kids who have been through this gauntlet that we’re currently in with social media and trying to understand and navigate how to keep true to ourselves while also riding the vicissitudes of whatever the internet has next in store for us.

I know it’s a little more serious than your other books, but it’s also a fun, entertaining read, right?

It’s super juicy, Katie. When you read it — especially since you’re in New York — you will recognize people. You’re gonna be like, “No you didn’t!” Every page is really outrageous. Hence why it had to be fiction. I’m using quotes right now. “Fiction.”

I’m excited to read it, Jenny. I’ll be interviewing you in the Hamptons. Good luck with the book tour!

Thanks! My website has all the details — I’ll be in Chicago, Nashville, Austin, Boston, LA, Phoenix, San Diego, Jersey, Bryant Park, and the Hamptons.