Lawmakers are having to deal with a grim new reality amid a steady rise in political violence toward public officials over the past decade, and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer has experienced this disturbing trend first-hand.

In 2020, the FBI arrested and charged more than a dozen people involved in a plot to overthrow the Michigan state government, which involved plans to kidnap Whitmer and detonate explosives.

In an interview with Katie Couric, Whitmer recalled the exact moment she knew she was in serious trouble. “They had a Barbie in a noose that looked like me,” she told her. “That was the moment when I realized, ‘Wow, this has taken a whole new level of danger.’”

This interview was conducted before former President Trump’s attempted assassination, which Whitmer said is part of an “alarming, years-long trend” in American politics. “Behind all these incidents is rhetoric,” she said in a statement. “We have seen calls to hate, harm, or jail political opponents. Violent conspiracies from the seediest corners of the internet have become incorporated into stump speeches. We have lost the plot when it comes to the way we talk to each other and about each other.”

In her sit-down with Katie, Whitmer also shared how her own brush with this kind of brutality affected her outlook on life and why she wants to meet those who were involved in her attempted abduction. Don’t miss the full interview below to hear what she has to say about abortion and whether or not she’s ever going to run for president.

Katie Couric: You spoke out about how scary Covid was and the lack of federal strategy. As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump, zeroed in on you, famously calling you “that woman from Michigan.” By the way, I’m a member of that club; I’ve been tweeted about by Donald Trump. He called me a “has been.” That was a number of years ago, and I’m still here, so that’s good. I thought it was really funny and great how you turned “that Michigan woman” into an asset instead of a liability. Talk to us about that. 

Gretchen Whitmer: When he called me, “That woman from Michigan,” was I hurt? No, not at all. But I was worried that he would exact retribution and not work with us on all of the things we needed during the pandemic. So, I decided to wear a T-shirt that someone from the great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me that said, “That woman from Michigan.” I wore it on Trevor Noah’s show. 

When a bully comes for you, you need to flip their insult and make it your cause for action…But yeah, I was a frequent target of his. 

We’re human, but Whitmer’s have short memories and thick skin. 

Well good for you, because God knows you need those in politics. And you need more than that because you need security. In 2020, a plot to kidnap and kill you by a right-wing militia group was discovered. Take us back to that moment. How did you even begin to process something like that?

It was really startling, to be honest. Governors were doing regular briefings about Covid in their states. And I went down to do one, and there was a protest at the Capitol. People didn’t know I was in my office across the street from the Capitol. 

I had issued a stay-at-home order. It was for like three weeks. People were pretty compliant until the former president singled me out — and then we started seeing protests, and then my legislature turned against me and started suing me and trying to take away my powers. I remember going down for one of my briefings and looking at this protest they’d organized. It was called “Operation Gridlock,” and they brought all their cars downtown, parked in the street, and made noise.

I knew that they were going to protest, and I thought, “OK, that’s fine.” But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate flags and Nazi symbolism. And there’s a picture in my book that I took with my phone that someone had on the back of their pickup. They had a Barbie in a noose that looked like me. That was the moment when I realized, “Wow, this has taken a whole new level of danger.”

Sounds like some foreshadowing of January 6. 

Exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the gallery with their automatic rifles. When January 6 happened, I was one of the few people that felt like it wasn’t a surprise.  

How did you learn about the kidnapping plot? 

The head of my detail. So, a lieutenant in the Michigan State Police said, “I just want you to know you and your family are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police are working with some informants who’ve been a part of a group of 10 to 14 people who’ve been putting together a plan to kidnap and kill you.” 

Good lord. I mean, even hearing you say that…holy sh*t.

It was scary. I wasn’t leaving the house much with the state police. They did a wonderful job keeping my family and me safe. 

How did it change life for you and your family? I’m sure you can’t live normally after something like that happens, right?

I love people, that’s why I do this work. I love going into unexpected places and having conversations with people. 

That’s why I got into all 83 counties in my first election. I love to ask people, “What can I do for you? What’s going on in your life?” And going into a crowded room and certain parts of the state, I feel much more aware. I’m much more concerned about where the exits are and who’s there. It’s really sad that anyone in public life has to think that way, but we do now. 

I thought it was interesting that you would like to meet with some of the people who were planning to kidnap and kill you. That’s really admirable but also, in some ways, hard to fathom. 

Yeah, I was gonna say, do you think I’m nuts? [Laughs]

I’ve done so many stories about children who’ve been brutally murdered and this extraordinary act of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to meet someone who killed their own child, so I understand your impulse in some ways. But what would you like to learn from them? 

I would love to talk especially with one of the ones that worked with the government and testified and has shown a little bit of remorse. I’d like to understand how this came to be, what was fueling it, and what was really going on with people. Taking up arms and planning to assassinate a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep people alive is not a rational reaction. So what else was happening there? What can I learn from this? I feel like there’s got to be a lesson in every situation, or I’ve got to at least try [to find it]. 

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This conversation has been lightly edited for clarity.