When Katie set out to produce a podcast on reproductive rights, she knew she had to paint the whole picture. Last week, on the first episode of Abortion: The Body Politic, you heard about where abortion stands right now. And this week, Katie travels back in time to understand the history of reproductive rights. She turned to multiple historians and experts, including Gloria Steinem, iconic feminist organizer, historian, and political activist. Steinem has seen reproductive rights evolve in front of her, as she’s been on the frontlines of the fight for women’s rights for decades. She also understands the complexities of abortion and a woman’s need for bodily autonomy firsthand, as she had an abortion after college.

Katie spoke to Steinem about the history of Roe v. Wade, her empowering experience, and the fears she has for the future. Read their conversation below and listen to the episode for more on the history of this fight.

Katie Couric: As a lifelong feminist — as someone who has fought for reproductive freedom and so many other things — what is your frame of mind right now as we approach this Supreme Court decision that very well might overturn Roe v. Wade?

Gloria Steinem: First anger, because that means that female human beings are not going to be equal citizens who have power over our own physical selves. Secondly, understanding from history that nothing but nothing can stop women from taking control of their bodies, which sometimes means having an abortion. The question is in safety. Something like 1 in 3 American women has needed an abortion in her lifetime. Will it be safe or not? Will female citizens of the United States be regarded as equal citizens? The vast majority of women support safe and legal abortion. My response is if those legislators were half women, this wouldn’t happen. If we actually had a democracy, if those legislators looked like the country from a gender, racial, and class perspective, this probably would not be happening. It’s all the more reason to try to achieve the democracy we’ve never completely had.

Either we have decision-making power over our own physical selves, male or female, or we don’t. The folks who have been against abortion — there’s not good company there. Hitler, after he was elected, padlocked all the family planning clinics and declared abortion a crime against the state. It was about producing more people, more power to him. I wish the Supreme Court would study some history. Dictators have tried to take that power away. But I am still hopeful that we will be able to retain our democracy.

Why do you think we’ve gotten to this point, after so many strides? Are you scratching your head or do you feel like you have a real understanding of how this moment evolved?

From long observation of who is against reproductive freedom, it mainly seems to be people who are profoundly racist. Especially now that the first generation that is majority babies of color has already been born. We are becoming a majority people of color country. They are alarmed by that. They are also authoritarians in a personal sense. That means that they believe in male superiority — and therefore male ability to control reproduction. And to control the one thing they don’t have, which is wombs. It isn’t the first time in history, certainly, that this has been true.

What if men got pregnant instead of women?

Flo Kennedy, the great crusading lawyer, always said if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Do you believe that?

Yes. I’m not trying to generalize, but I think that men have been encouraged to believe they have control over their own bodies. Precisely because they are not possessors of wombs.

You’ve often said that it’s not possible to have equal rights for women without reproductive rights. Can you explain the connection?

The right to make decisions over our own physical self is the fundament of democracy. To not be ordered about in medieval ways and to make those basic decisions is absolutely fundamental. In the past when women expressed this, it’s been even worse because they’d be declared witches. This is how women got to be witches — because they practiced medicine for other women. Women would go into their homes pregnant and come out unpregnant. This was perceived as Witchery not only in Europe but to some extent in New England. Let’s remember we are still living in a patriarchy, which means male dominance in general and especially over reproduction.

If a woman cannot have autonomy over her body, then her ability to be in the world — to plan her life, to have a career, to be a fully equal participant in society ​​— is impossible.

If you can’t control your own physical selves, as female human beings, that means that you may be in the continuous process of being pregnant, giving birth, and taking care of infants. There’s not very much you can do if you’re totally occupied in that way. Especially because we, as humans, care about our children.

What are some of the biggest fallacies about abortion that you think the opposition has manipulated or stereotyped or conveyed to the population at large?

One is that the anti-abortion movement has always been religious. This is absolutely not the case. Pope Pius IX not only approved of abortion but regulated it. He said you could abort a female fetus up to 5 months and a male fetus up to 3 months. (He wrongly thought that males, being superior, quickened earlier.)

A lot of people have the conception that the women who have abortions are irresponsible or are using it as birth control. There’s this stereotype that is perpetuated about the kind of women who have abortions.

It’s illogical to think that because what is pleasurable about a surgical procedure? You don’t get up in the morning saying, “It’s a nice day. I think I’ll have surgery.” We all want to limit that as much as possible.

Some women aren’t focused on overturning Roe v. Wade because they’ve never lived in a world where Roe v. Wade didn’t exist since it was handed down in 1973. You remember the world before Roe v. Wade, and what that was like for women. Can you describe it?

There was always something of a difference among states. In New York, you were more likely to find access to illegal and safe abortions than in more conservative states. In the past, there was much more worry, agony, and fear about whether or not you were pregnant. If you were pregnant and didn’t wish to be, there was much more likelihood that you would have to somehow get together the money and the time — often in secret — to travel far away and get an abortion. There was a network called “Jane” that women had set up. On the phone, people would call and ask for Jane. The woman on the other end would know that this woman needed to seek a safe illegal abortion and would provide help and instructions. That was terrifically painful, time-consuming, and ridiculous because that’s not a democracy. In a democracy, we have — at a minimum — decision-making power over our own bodies.

It was very dangerous to get abortion before Roe v. Wade. A lot of women tried to perform their own abortions, or they got botched abortions from people who were not qualified. It was a really scary time.

It could be very dangerous. The first woman who died from an abortion was a Mexican-American young woman in Texas who was finally able to go to college. She was getting her life together. In order to have that abortion, she went to Mexico and had a procedure that caused an infection. She died. For a long time, we wore prisoner of war bracelets that commemorated this event.

When you were 22, you found yourself pregnant. It was 1957. You were living in London at the time and abortion was illegal. What did you do?

I had graduated from college. I was engaged to be married to a very good, nice person, but I knew that it would be a big mistake for me. He was 10 years older and more settled in his life. I fled to London and it was there that I finally realized that I was pregnant. I fantasized that I would go to Paris somehow. I thought that Paris was a more accepting city. I forgot that it was also Catholic. I called a physician I found in the phone book and he was close to where I was living. I went to him and confirmed that I was pregnant. It was clear to him that I did not want to be. He said, “If you promise to never tell anyone my name and if you do what you want to do with your life, I will be the first signer” — because they required two signatures — and he sent me to a woman physician who actually did the abortion. I dedicated a book to him, Dr. John Sharpe, who probably was not alive by then. But I wanted to thank him publicly.

You were able to get an abortion, but you were a white woman who had means. I’m sure that you often think about women who were less fortunate than you at the time and the very few options they had.

Yes, absolutely. There were some anomalies with this system. During the times of slavery, for instance, women were so often forced to have children in order to produce more slaves, so women learned how to do abortions. For a long time, the racial ability to perform an abortion was reversed, it was probably more likely to exist among Black women than white women. Nobody ever surveyed this of course. But in general, Black women’s lesser ability to seek medical help, contraception, and anything that required a fee made it even more of a problem for women of color.

Tell me how you emotionally dealt with your abortion.

I sort of thought, just because of the culture I’d grown up in, that perhaps I should feel guilty. I walked around London for a few days, trying to make myself feel guilty. And I couldn’t, I absolutely could not because it was clear to me that I had taken control. It was my body. It was my life. I was helped in that by the doctor I went to. And then by the woman doctor he sent me to. Because they themselves were very guilt-free. I felt free. I felt like, “I’ve got my life back.” How can you feel guilty about that? I wanted to go spend two years in India on a fellowship. And I did.

But I was not helped by the culture of the 1950s. I hope that is over. I hope that women understand that we have a right and even a duty to control our own physical selves, that there is no democracy without that.

What do you remember from when Roe v. Wade became the law of the land? Where were you? What did you think?

The women’s movement was already underway. It just seemed like the law was catching up with real life. I was probably feeling like, “It’s about time, where have you been?”

Do you think in some ways the feminist movement and the abortion rights movement neglect women of color?

In my experience, women of color were leading those movements in the first place. The very first national poll of women’s opinions on what was then called women’s liberation showed that something like 70 percent of Black women supported it, and only about 30 percent or 40 percent of White women. It’s ever been thus. The vision of the Civil Rights Movement being entirely Black or the women’s movement of being entirely White has never actually been accurate even if you just look at public opinion and polls.

We are making so much progress in so many areas. Why do you think we’re going backward with abortion when we’re making progress on so many other big, thorny social issues?

I don’t think we are going backward in terms of consciousness. The very fact that we’re not going backward in terms of consciousness has alarmed some of the patriarchs in state legislatures. Those state legislatures frequently look not much like the state in which they are. That’s a danger, but it’s not like a popular uprising against abortion.

So you’re not that worried?

Of course, I’m worried. I’m always worried. I, like millions of women and men, try to take whatever action I can to support democracy and the root democratic ability to control our own physical selves. We send money to other states that are having a problem, even if our own states are not. I’m not saying it’s enough. We could always do more. But it’s a lot.