A number of Trump’s prospective cabinet picks have generated controversy — and among them is anti-vax activist, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. If confirmed, Kennedy will become the nation’s top health official — but will his appointment threaten current protections against infectious diseases in the U.S.?

To obtain a richer understanding of the anti-vax movement — and to get a better idea of how RFK Jr. might use his power as United States Secretary of Health and Human Services — Katie spoke to two passionate experts. Scott Hamilton Kennedy is the director of Shot in the Arm, a documentary that explores the history and current state of anti-vax activism. They’re joined by scientist, author, and executive producer of the film Neil deGrasse Tyson, who contributes his unique perspective on how contemporary scientists view the growing MAHA movement. Watch the video for the complete conversation, and read some of the most enlightening moments below.

Katie Couric: You interviewed RFK Jr. for this documentary. He didn’t look super comfortable talking to you, but tell me about his role in all of this so people truly understand.

Scott Hamilton Kennedy: Robert Kennedy Jr. has been in the fight for a long time. He says he got into it because a woman showed up at his door with evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism, and she wouldn’t leave until he read the papers. He read the papers finally and thought that in those papers, he had evidence that mercury, or other things in vaccines, were causing autism.

The overwhelming science says that that is incorrect. But it started his mission…He says it’s because of evidence. I don’t know why he does it. It’s clearly some version of ego…there’s a bit of a God complex…There’s a bit of a manipulation of the David and Goliath story. “I’m David, pointing out that all these Goliaths are wrong. Big pharma, big food, big government, they’re all wrong. I’m the only one telling you the truth.” Sadly, the science doesn’t support the evidence.

Let’s talk about how Robert F. Kennedy is President-elect Donald Trump’s nominee to head the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the NIH, the CDC, and the FDA. He’s said he’ll replace corrupt officials with honest public servants. He would investigate — and in a couple of months — would find the cause of autism in children. How did you react when you heard that he was being tapped for this role?

Scott Hamilton Kennedy: He’s a bit like a cockroach that just won’t go away. I feel like I’ve had the evidence to see that he’s not an honest broker since 2019…it just keeps getting more definitive. He doesn’t respect nor stand by the tenets of science and democracy, and we can test him on that, right? He says, “I’ll change my mind if evidence is presented to me. Show me the evidence…I will admit that I’m wrong.” I’ve never seen him admit that he’s wrong.

What are you most worried about?

Scott Hamilton Kennedy: All of it. He’s not an honest broker. He could have devastating influence on vaccines being mandated for our children before they go to school.

Neil deGrasse Tyson: Or he could have a “come to Jesus” moment.

Scott Hamilton Kennedy: I’ve coined a phrase in the journey with Shot in the Arm that some of these people are not just corrupt, they’re corrosive. Robert Kennedy Jr. isn’t just corrupt. Andrew Wakefield isn’t just corrupt. He’s corrosive. He’s corrosive to science. He’s corrosive to these institutions that in democracy and science that have been remarkable. Not perfect; no one’s ever saying that they’re perfect, and we have checks and balances to try to adjust to their imperfections. But by and large, it’s been incredible that we have a functioning society like we do. We’re in New York City. This place is a miracle that we can live with this many people on top of each other and it just doesn’t all cave in on itself.

We could go another direction, and we could get ask Robert Kennedy Jr. and everybody else that wants their freedoms, [to] go take an island over. Start over [with] a hundred percent freedoms. [You] don’t have to be told what medicine is. You get to use whatever food you want to eat. Let’s see how that goes. A lot of dead people.

As the MAHA movement grows, the CDC is recording a dip in vaccination rates and a resurgence of measles, the most contagious of common childhood diseases. There have been 13 measles outbreaks in 2024 compared with four in 2023.

Neil deGrasse Tyson: There you go. I worry that we have to sink lower before people wake up to what role and value objective truth and science will play in health, wealth, and security. I worry a little bit about that. How low? I don’t know.

You mean there has to be some terrible outbreak?

Neil deGrasse Tyson: Or we see other countries rise up around us while we’re sitting [and] fighting about who’s getting vaccinated. And people are dying by not getting vaccinated or falling lethally ill. [If] other countries rise up and we’re no longer at the table because we’re in denial of the very science that put us on the map in the first place… That has been quite a motivator in the past. When we feel a threat from the outside and they’re better at something that we had previously cherished about ourselves, that can be quite potent. So I worry that we’d have to sink lower before everyone wakes up to what role and value that science needs to play in our lives.